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Thread: cp_axle

  1. #21
    Trading Philanthropist AngryPotato's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    I like all the fixes but I think the forward spawn (near central point) still needs to be rotated or rebuilt, because it still happens that people run all the way to their 2nd point instead of attack - once almost the whole team ran out of spawn, reached the previous point and stood like "What's going on? That's not the place where I can shoot people!"
    Also we felt like the 2nd and last point capture times are too short - especially when you can't stick to wall on last point (you know, in Badlands you can defend having your back near to wall on last point so you have some control whether you still defend it or not - in your map there's no such natural border and it resulted in a ridiculous situation where a group of defenders was trying to melee a spy on the last point and suddenly they stepped out of cap area and lost the game) - I think you should either make it a bit longer to cap or add some natural limits there.
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  2. #22
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    Re: cp_axle

    really nice game on this map yesterday.
    I'm not sure but I think the trap doors in vent at the last points act a little awkwardly whenever 2 players are standing on the same one.
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  3. #23
    Unreformed Convict SleeperService's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    Played this lastnight and really enjoyed it.

    Played well and i didnt notice any issues. Not the best at picking up problems though.

    Nice one.

  4. #24
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    Re: cp_axle

    Really nice map, was the highlight of the evening for me

    The fourth point seemed somewhat hard to hold at times. Not sure if anyone else thinks that though
    But once you push through, the last point is easy to cap, so I guess that balances out afterall
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  5. #25
    Playstuff Member .ps grazr's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    The reason for the unorthodox spawn positioning was simply a lack of space, it takes a moderate amount of room to house 16 spawn positions (comfortably, what with the door trigger and supply cabinet). I'll have to look into creating some more space so i can re-position the first and third spawns into more natural orientations. The secondary reason for having the spawn exits on the side of the room at the final point was so that it was harder to shoot into the spawn room, even from the point. Something that was supposed to reduce direct spawn spam.

    The ventilation grate has a delay on the close function. I put that there because the instant close looked really strange for a horizontal door; but if fixing an aesthetical issue introduces gameplay problems i may have to put up with it just looking odd, rather than acting odd. Due to ally team clipping i never expected this to be a problem.

    I'll also look into the cap times for the primary and secondary control points.

    I'm glad this map is being well recieved, even though i havn't touched this map in 4 months (due to artpass contest) this map may have a relatively short development period. I guess that's also related to under taking a relatively small and unambitious project. On an unrelated note, hopefully i can make my displacements appear less blocky in future, it's something that's really bothering me.

    PS there appears to be some forum bug where if i thank people whilst in the middle of using the quick reply function i can't see whether the thanks was given. It's the second time i've done that now :/ the thank button is missing so i'm assumed the thanks was assigned, but i wasn't checking the guys stats to check.

    Edit: Also, AngryPotato, i'm starting to get the impression that team confusion has a lot to do with people running into their own bases from the third spawn, coupled with the frequent back capping of second that leaves the odd player behind enemy lines and fighting from an extreme flank (behind). It's giving me the impression, at least, that this is a likely catalyst for player confusion post new-round. Attacking the second (forth) point from the left or right flank does put you in a position to be fighting from your enemy teams orientation.

    This observation has been invaluble and hopefully i can reduce if not out right remove this side effect/symptom.

  6. #26
    Moderator DJive's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    I need to stop sucking and start playing TF2 again.

    The stuff you guys are making looks fantastic.

  7. #27
    AdminiBob almightybob's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    Really liked this map. One suggestion I would make - throw up a rock or something in the middle of the upper ledge at point 2, to provide attackers taking that route with a bit of cover while they attempt to push round the right. At the moment, it's quite exposed, and probably under-used because of that.
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  8. #28
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    Re: cp_axle

    I think the upper ledge is also fairly underused because it's a much longer route to take. It always feels like I'm taking the long way round when I go that way. In particular, I almost never think to take it when going to point 3, but only when attacking to point 4.

    As for the map: I love point 3. Every battle I've had there has been interesting, and despite being simple, there's a lot of variety in how you can assault it. On the downside, going between 2-3, 3-4 has always felt strange and a little weird. I haven't analysed it to figure out possible reasons why, but neither assaulting 4 nor defending 2 has been particularly fun.
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  9. #29
    ლ(ಠ益ಠლ) Logan's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    Really enjoying the map - it has already produced some superb games on the teamplay.

    With a map that plays this well, I find it hard to offer guidance for improvement, although spawn orientation, which is covered ^^^ could be better. I regularly leave spawn 1 in the wrong direction.

    Battles are well balanced and I've played several games where one team had reached the final point and their opponents have managed to hold, push back and go on to win the game.

    Very good work.
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  10. #30
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    Re: cp_axle

    Quote Originally Posted by Colt View Post
    I've played several games where one team had reached the final point and their opponents have managed to hold, push back and go on to win the game.
    That doesn't always work out well, though. In the game last night (I think it was), there was a constant back-and-forth, with first red capturing four of the five points, then blue pushing them all the way back but not being able to cap the final point, then red pushing all the way through (except the final point) again. This back-and-forth lasted until sudden death kicked in.
    Last edited by Boylee; 21-10-2010 at 16:10.
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  11. #31
    Playstuff Member .ps grazr's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    Quote Originally Posted by VelvetFistIronGlove View Post
    I think the upper ledge is also fairly underused because it's a much longer route to take. It always feels like I'm taking the long way round when I go that way. In particular, I almost never think to take it when going to point 3, but only when attacking to point 4.

    As for the map: I love point 3. Every battle I've had there has been interesting, and despite being simple, there's a lot of variety in how you can assault it. On the downside, going between 2-3, 3-4 has always felt strange and a little weird. I haven't analysed it to figure out possible reasons why, but neither assaulting 4 nor defending 2 has been particularly fun.
    I get what you're saying, i have noticed and felt this as well. Though i'm not entirely sure how to approach it without rotating the bases orientation into a linear granary style (what _a2 was) to equalise the path distances. I've tried to avoid centralising the 2nd cp because it has unique gameplay where it is... and is balanced. Having a route on the left made for a major shortcut where the main route became less significant; but having the right flank, it gets largely ignored because it takes too long, despite there being health and height advantages. The route does get used, but it's understandably not ideal.

    Possible resolution(s):

    http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/1286...xle_a30015.jpg

    It wasn't something i seriously considered because it makes the height advantage less advantagious if your enemies can always reach you (non jump perk classes).

    My initial feedback on the centre was to open up movement with ramps from top-bottom as i originally wanted to penalise people falling off the arch by forcing them to attack/retreat or perk jump back, but it mostly just pissed players off. I'm thinking possibly it might be the same deal with the outter route around CP2, to increase traffic in the far reaches of CP2's area i may need to add better access. Either that or connect some routes within the CP2-3 dividing building. I used to have the point on the far flank in _a1 (when the base was on the opposite side) but people complained it was too out of the way...

    I will add some cover boulders to help the outter flank to be a more reasonable choice, reducing player exposure. But the upper ledge was always going to favour soldiers/demos/snipers/scouts which seems like a balanced selection of classes, tests on TF2maps have shown the outter route get plenty of use by even heavies (but usually only for attacking from mid to cp2). But that was also only with 4-4 to 8-8 player teams. Tomorrow will be my first 24 man test at TF2maps.

    I have to say i'm getting a little confused about reports on the final area. Some say it's annoyingly difficult to hold and the cap time is too fast (despite being longer/equal than/to most push maps), whilst others have reported that it's relatively easy to hold and go on to fight back across the map. I have used relatively shorter cap times on the central points in an effort to get more back and forth gameplay and it seems to be working as intended, but is this a bad thing? Maybe i can increase the middle point's cap time to create a steamroll buffer?

    P.S.

    I could also try: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/cp_axle_a30016.jpg But i get the feeling that attackers would never expose themselves infront of CP2 if they could gain access to CP2 from the building that overlooks it. I also don't like the idea of 1 way paths in cp push so it's not like i could make it defender specific unless perhaps it was a CP2 lock/unlock related thing? So it would be less of a cheat for defenders to get a garunteed flank without interception...

    (edit: for some reason it wont let me thank velvet :/).

  12. #32
    Greater crested hermit ninja Boylee's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    DEMOS: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1766697/blue..._cp_axle_a3.7z

    Quote Originally Posted by grazr View Post
    I have to say i'm getting a little confused about reports on the final area. Some say it's annoyingly difficult to hold and the cap time is too fast (despite being longer/equal than/to most push maps), whilst others have reported that it's relatively easy to hold and go on to fight back across the map. I have used relatively shorter cap times on the central points in an effort to get more back and forth gameplay and it seems to be working as intended, but is this a bad thing? Maybe i can increase the middle point's cap time to create a steamroll buffer?
    I'd say the reason for the ambiguous feedback is because it's well balanced and both of those things occur depending on the teams. I personally don't think any of the cap times need changing and I don't think there's any major layout adjustments needed. I'm honestly very impressed with the layout of this map. It's elegantly simple yet offers a fair amount of strategy and variation. If this wasn't the case I wouldn't have put it in the main server rotation. I think all that's really needed is a few tweaks to things like cover and clipping and a bit more work on the aesthetic side.

    In this area:



    I'd say don't allow easy access to the top. You could go with a jumble of props that are climbable (ala left route on 2-1 dustbowl) as it would be slow enough to compensate for allowing players up that way. I don't really think it's needed though. One thing I would say is that the wooden support boards look a little weird since they're usually used to support dirt walls. rock walls wouldn't need support. Some cover up top in the form of rocks might be nice too.

    Please don't change the central CP too much, it's great. Can you post a top down please so I can look at the forward spawn configuration please?

    P.S. I've edited VFIG's post, your thanks should show up now. It's a broken vbulletin plugin unfortunately. :/
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  13. #33
    Trading Philanthropist AngryPotato's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    I'd say don't allow easy access to the top. You could go with a jumble of props that are climbable (ala left route on 2-1 dustbowl) as it would be slow enough to compensate for allowing players up that way.
    I'd say YES for that - it would be much better for spies or retrating defending snipers, heavies should have some profits there too. As a spy player - Oui pour cette idee!
    I like the wooden support boards - they build some general map climate, so I wouldn't get rid of them.
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  14. #34
    Playstuff Member .ps grazr's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    Heh, you have four _a3 demo's there and only one _a4a. Is _a3 getting more play on your server?

  15. #35
    Greater crested hermit ninja Boylee's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    oops. Not sure why that is. The demos seem to be on a mission to confuse me today.

    About those support boards, would you consider texturing those walls with dirt instead of rock and adding a few more boards?
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  16. #36
    Playstuff Member .ps grazr's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    Any reason for that choice in particular? I'll do a couple compiles with different materials and see what looks nice on the cliffs. Can't help to at least see. But the rock seems to be looking OK to me and tiles better than the horizontal dirt strata textures (what with all my caves and varying heights).

    Also, because of the frequent capping, the timer rarely goes below 8 minutes; each capture throws in 4-5 minutes of more play even if it were to go quite low, topping it up (something i've overlooked until watching those demos). I'll probably reduce that to around a minute so the map is less likely to stalemate if and when it does. Or atleast make it not look stupid when the map always has 9 minutes of round left.

    I'll deffinately be adding more boards to the detail bounds outside the play area, so you will see more, i'll try and look for spots in the gameplay area... i don't want them to get in the way too much though.

  17. #37
    Greater crested hermit ninja Boylee's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    My only real reason for that choice is that it looks odd to me having a solid stone wall supported with wooden boards. Maybe it's just me though. :S
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  18. #38
    Playstuff Member .ps grazr's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    Sneak preview of cover: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1429764/SS-2...2_06.10.45.jpg

    I could add in some chicken wire to provide more cover where the gap is. I tried using rocks but they were too cumbersome and the wooden panels just looked forced. It looked really cool with one of the crane pully models at the top, but the model doesn't have a back face so i couldn't use it :/ never mind. Let me know if i should add more cover to that, my concern is that adding too much prevents players from shooting down at defenders. But i might be able to add another section like this half way along.

  19. #39
    Greater crested hermit ninja Boylee's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    That looks like plenty.
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  20. #40
    Playstuff Member .ps grazr's Avatar
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    Re: cp_axle

    Some major concerns were brought to light about playing with a full server, the map feels choke pointy with little chance of flanking due to the lack of flanking paths between each CP area. I'm already working on the previously suggested route to the room overlooking CP2, so defenders can ambush enemies on the point when advancing from CP1.

    Potential additional path:

    Image
    Image

    The site line may be a bit long so i may decide to have the tunnel bend or dip to break LoS. But this was strictly concerning full man teams.

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